The Autonerdz Community Forums - Anyone experienced timing after top dead center?

K-Mech

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Anyone experienced timing after top dead center?
Oct 20^th, 2018 at 9:47pm

Hi nerdz. I am working on a VW golf. I don't have much experience with VWs, so I needed to know if this is a problem or not.

The client called me in to find out why it intermittently stalls on acceleration. When she took me on a test drive to duplicate the problem, the symptoms were when you punch it to the floor, it surges 3 - 5 times (almost like injectors turning on and off) then the car stalls. When it stalls, it is a no start for the first couple of cranks.

When we drove back to her house, I put a scanner on it. No codes. Pulled live data then tried to duplicate the problem, but as it usually goes, the car refused to act up with me there. Everything on live data seemed to be OK, EXCEPT I noticed the ignition timing at idle was reading 12 degrees ATDC. I thought, NO, impossible! I've never seen any car fire after top dead center and run as well as this car is running. So I decided to take a pressure transducer reading in order to verify if the computer is lying or telling the truth. Sure enough, the capture below shows indeed the computer is telling the truth (ch1 - Ignition signal for coil #1, ch 2 - pressure transducer in cylinder #1).

I have to go back and look at the car when it acts up again, but I cannot get the timing out of my head. This is the VW 2.0l FSI engine. There is no published data on ignition timing from VW for this engine. Has anyone ever experienced this? This car has no running issues - no popping, rough idling or anything.

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VW_timing_at_idle.bmp (4550 KB | )

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Logic LSD Guide Picogroup Offline Posts: 4,147 Bentleigh Victoria Australia	Re: Anyone experienced timing after top dead center? Reply #1 - Oct 21^st, 2018 at 12:18am direct injection?
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K-Mech Senior Member Picogroup Offline I'm an Autonerd Posts: 216 Nairobi Kenya Gender:	Re: Anyone experienced timing after top dead center? Reply #2 - Oct 21^st, 2018 at 1:18am Yes, it's direct injection.
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Logic LSD Guide Picogroup Offline Posts: 4,147 Bentleigh Victoria Australia	Re: Anyone experienced timing after top dead center? Reply #3 - Oct 21^st, 2018 at 1:45am K-Mech wrote on Oct 21^st, 2018 at 1:18am: Yes, it's direct injection. may I suggest you get your engine oil tested for fuel dilution?
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K-Mech Senior Member Picogroup Offline I'm an Autonerd Posts: 216 Nairobi Kenya Gender:	Re: Anyone experienced timing after top dead center? Reply #4 - Oct 21^st, 2018 at 2:45am Logic wrote on Oct 21^st, 2018 at 1:45am: may I suggest you get your engine oil tested for fuel dilution? OK.... I can organize that. But, if you don't mind, could you please explain the Logic... [err.. pardon me ] behind that?
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rayray LSD Guide Picogroup Offline Posts: 2,207 Toronto Ontario Canada Gender:	Re: Anyone experienced timing after top dead center? Reply #5 - Oct 21^st, 2018 at 10:06am What year is the Golf?
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K-Mech Senior Member Picogroup Offline I'm an Autonerd Posts: 216 Nairobi Kenya Gender:	Re: Anyone experienced timing after top dead center? Reply #6 - Oct 21^st, 2018 at 10:51am It's a 2005. Please find the specific vehicle data and the engine material I got from VW below.
Back to top	Vehicle-specific+information1955644413958711749.pdf (241 KB \| ) 00028114320-Nr__322__The_2_0l_FSI_engine_with_4-valve_technology.pdf (1517 KB \| ) IP Logged

Logic

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Re: Anyone experienced timing after top dead center?
Reply #7 - Oct 21^st, 2018 at 1:13pm

K-Mech wrote on Oct 21^st, 2018 at 2:45am:

Logic wrote on Oct 21^st, 2018 at 1:45am:

may I suggest you get your engine oil tested for fuel dilution?

OK.... I can organize that. But, if you don't mind, could you please explain the Logic... [err.. pardon me Wink

] behind that?

You may have a leaking HP pump dumping fuel into the sump.

Oil test will show will show any fuel in the oil.

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K-Mech Senior Member Picogroup Offline I'm an Autonerd Posts: 216 Nairobi Kenya Gender:	Re: Anyone experienced timing after top dead center? Reply #8 - Oct 21^st, 2018 at 6:43pm I see. And you infer this from the timing retard? If so, why would the PCM do this?
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Logic

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Re: Anyone experienced timing after top dead center?
Reply #9 - Oct 22^nd, 2018 at 2:21am

It was this that caused me to persue this line

K-Mech wrote on Oct 20^th, 2018 at 9:47pm:

The client called me in to find out why it intermittently stalls on acceleration

I have asked nothing about the following..........as yet

K-Mech wrote on Oct 20^th, 2018 at 9:47pm:

When we drove back to her house

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fisher Super Nerd Picogroup Offline Deceased Posts: 2,734 Concord California USA Gender:	Re: Anyone experienced timing after top dead center? Reply #10 - Oct 22^nd, 2018 at 7:01am If you have a scantool, see about monitoring oil pressure for that when it happens, is there a PID for pressure for that? Also monitor position of cam phaser.
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K-Mech Senior Member Picogroup Offline I'm an Autonerd Posts: 216 Nairobi Kenya Gender:	Re: Anyone experienced timing after top dead center? Reply #11 - Oct 22^nd, 2018 at 9:48am Logic wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2018 at 2:21am: have asked nothing about the following..........as yet He he he! What happens at the diagnosis, stays at the diagnosis!
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K-Mech

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Re: Anyone experienced timing after top dead center?
Reply #12 - Oct 22^nd, 2018 at 9:52am

fisher wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2018 at 7:01am:

If you have a scantool, see about monitoring oil pressure for that when it happens, is there a PID for pressure for that? Also monitor position of cam phaser.

I am going back there tomorrow. I was going to monitor fuel pressure, cam, crank, oil pressure and iGN and injector pulse.

I still am worried about the timing retard. I have the sinking feeling that this is an unrelated problem to the surging at acceleration. I hope I can get the car to act up.

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Steve J Freshman Member Picogroup Offline I'm an Autonerd Posts: 45 Brattvåg Norway Gender:	Re: Anyone experienced timing after top dead center? Reply #13 - Oct 24^th, 2018 at 5:31am K-Mech wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2018 at 9:48am: Logic wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2018 at 2:21am: have asked nothing about the following..........as yet He he he! What happens at the diagnosis, stays at the diagnosis! Like backprobing and such...
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K-Mech Senior Member Picogroup Offline I'm an Autonerd Posts: 216 Nairobi Kenya Gender:	Re: Anyone experienced timing after top dead center? Reply #14 - Oct 24^th, 2018 at 12:39pm Steve J wrote on Oct 24^th, 2018 at 5:31am: Like backprobing and such...
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