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Possible future dynamic transducer for spark plug? (Read 477 times)
Randy H.
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Possible future dynamic transducer for spark plug?
Jan 11th, 2011 at 11:41am
 
I was searching around on the net for pressure transducers that will display dynamic pressures and I came up with some companies that sell them. The interesting thing is - they are built in to an actual spark plug! (there are other models) I am wondering if they will actually measure combustion pressures!???? As you can imagine, this could be a very useful tool! Here is the link to the sites. http://www.avlditest.com/?id=148&L=1
http://www.optrand.com/products.htm
http://www.intertechnology.com/Kistler/Pressure_Model_6117B.htm

I haven't analyzed the data sheet in detail yet, and I dont know if they are available to the end user....
But i am going to find out!
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Randy Hatton
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Re: Possible future dynamic transducer for spark plug?
Reply #1 - Jan 11th, 2011 at 5:06pm
 
Randy

This is very interesting thank you for your research  Wink

This company http://www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=dereferer;url=http://www.inter... is right in my back yard

Mick
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Re: Possible future dynamic transducer for spark plug?
Reply #2 - Jan 11th, 2011 at 6:27pm
 
I believe the article is stating the transducer is installed along side an actual secondary circuit; it is a functioning plug.
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Randy H.
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Re: Possible future dynamic transducer for spark plug?
Reply #3 - Jan 12th, 2011 at 3:58am
 
Yes it is an actual functioning spark plug - automotive engineers use these to analyze their prototype engines - to remove knock, analyze emissions, volumetric efficiency, etc. I hope they will be affordable/practical for techs soon!
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Brad H
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Re: Possible future dynamic transducer for spark plug?
Reply #4 - Jan 12th, 2011 at 5:27am
 
I'll probably get shot down here but here goes  Grin

Whilst these are very important for evaluating engine performance/design from an engineering stand point, I would see limited diagnostic information from combustion pressure and flame front characteristics.

Brad
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Re: Possible future dynamic transducer for spark plug?
Reply #5 - Jan 12th, 2011 at 11:24am
 
I agree Brad,
I have seen a 'combustion' compression waveform that John Thornton and others had done
using the WPS500 with a rigged up spark plug. While it was good to see what peak pressure was and when it occurred, it didn't hold any more diagnostic value than a standard non-combustion running compression test.
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Randy H.
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Re: Possible future dynamic transducer for spark plug?
Reply #6 - Jan 12th, 2011 at 9:09pm
 
I agree with you guys - to a point. If you don't have a huge computer to analyze the flamefront and 'knock' there is limited diagnostic value in these specialized transducers for us as techs. 
What I really find interesting about these is that i would expect to see them on cars for engine controls soon - once they become affordable.

Also, after some research, these are quite a bit different than a wps and a rigged plug. Some are specifically designed to show very specific information of whats going on in a cylinder. Some will show peak combustion pressures only, others are a lot more sensitive and show even more info - like the controlled explosion at the peak of the compression waveform.
Personally, I would be interested to see the even higher pressures created when the spark plug actually fires in a dynamic test. However, we can't really know until they become affordable and someone uses them for diagnostic purposes.
Also note that I listed it as possible future transducer in the title. Some of these (to actually show the controlled explosion)cost well over 1200 bucks apiece - not to mention the plug reach and gap would have to vary for each vehicle under test. Also, the hookup on most is through fibre optics. This is simply not practical for a technician. In that I have to agree!
You guys are brave - as much as a WPS costs - and useful as it is - there is no way I would put it under combustion pressures! Shocked
Here is another link to some waveforms created by these sensors - and how they are made. The same technology is going to be incorporated into injectors and glow plugs....
http://www.optrand.com/Papers/fisita98/fisita98.htm
I find new technology to be always interesting - keeps you ahead of the game a bit.....
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« Last Edit: Jan 12th, 2011 at 9:56pm by Randy H. »  

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Re: Possible future dynamic transducer for spark plug?
Reply #7 - Jan 22nd, 2011 at 9:01pm
 
From what I've heard we can expect to see combustion chamber pressure sensors installed in vehicles as part of the OBD system in the near future, wonder if these spark plug transducers is what we'll be seeing? This would be very valuable diagnostic info, having an direct cyl. press. measurement on a scanner as oppossed to relative / indirect measurements! A college prof. who attended some Toyota thing was telling me about this, nothing for sure yet, but it's being talked about.

I belive Toyota has already implemented the new smog req's for clearing DTC's too! Meaning you can no longer clear a pcm's diag. info, you have to prove out the dtc using the obd2 system (obd3? Huh). You may be able to clear the DTC, but the eng. light will remain on until the pcm has tested out the DTC, while this seems intimidating it's also nice, now we'll have uniterrupted monitor and mode 6 data, no more random clear outs by other people!
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Re: Possible future dynamic transducer for spark plug?
Reply #8 - Jan 23rd, 2011 at 4:47am
 
Irwin,

I believe some of your information is flawed. It appears you are referring to permanent fault codes. For 50 percent of all 2010, 75 percent of all 2011, and 100 percent of all 2012 and subsequent model year vehicles (including 2012 model year medium-duty vehicles with 2011 model year engines certified on an engine dynamometer), before the end of an ignition cycle, the OBD II system shall store confirmed fault codes that are currently causing the MIL to be illuminated in NVRAM as permanent fault codes (as defined in section (g)(4.4.6)).

http://www.arb.ca.gov/regact/obdii06/19682clean.pdf (2.2.5)

The MIL will not be illuminated after a code clear, however, the permanent fault code does stay in memory until the PCM has run the exact monitor that failed it originally and then runs it and it passes. Once that happens, then the OBD system will clear it on its own. This was implemented to prevent cheating during an I/M program test.

As far as uninterrupted mode $06 data goes, I'm not so sure about that. My understanding is the only change here is for PFC storage.  
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Carl Grotti
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Re: Possible future dynamic transducer for spark plug?
Reply #9 - Jan 23rd, 2011 at 9:03am
 
I had been thinking it would be good to introduce a self test like Ford's KOEO and KOER in order for to prove the repair, run the diagnostic monitor; instead of the technician needing to do an OBD drive cycle.
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Re: Possible future dynamic transducer for spark plug?
Reply #10 - Jan 24th, 2011 at 11:13pm
 
This technology is already on the road today.  Though it's not a gasoline engine the VW 2.0L TDI uses glow plugs that are cylinder pressure sensors as well.

http://www.beru.com/english/produkte/psg.php
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« Last Edit: Jan 25th, 2011 at 8:44am by RyanH »  
 
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Re: Possible future dynamic transducer for spark plug?
Reply #11 - Feb 2nd, 2011 at 2:11pm
 
Yesterday I received a flyer from a guy I do my training seminars with. On that flyer he had the AVL DPM 800. I thought I'd ask about about a price. They've just gone up he tells me to $15,999NZ  Shocked ($12,200AUD $12,370US).  And he has sold them.

The WPS500 seems an absolute bargin now.

Andy
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Re: Possible future dynamic transducer for spark plug?
Reply #12 - Feb 2nd, 2011 at 11:00pm
 
Carl Grotti wrote on Jan 23rd, 2011 at 4:47am:
I believe some of your information is flawed. It appears you are referring to permanent fault codes


It may be so, I haven't seen any of these vehicles yet. I think that 2012 models, so aug 2011, we'll be seeing the change. As far as I understood it, the dtc's will be set in the same manner (consecutive drive cycles... etc.) but the method for clearing them will change. Right now if i clear a code it clears out all of the diag. info, so the mode 6 data is reset, with the changes coming up, when a code is cleared it will not clear out the diag. info. So in order to truly clear dtc's we will need to prove them out. And when a code is cleared, you will only be clearing out that code. I also hear that the smog license requirements will include a hands on test for those who want to test and repiar, as well as a new test for testers only. I'm in california, so not sure if these changes will be effective in other states. In either case, we will be seeing soem changes, there's been talk of a ticketing sys. that will send a ticket by mail if a driver's eng. light has been on for longer than 30 days! (we'll see about that one).
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Re: Possible future dynamic transducer for spark plug?
Reply #13 - Feb 2nd, 2011 at 11:18pm
 
(C) Permanent fault codes shall be stored in NVRAM and may not be
erasable by any scan tool command (generic or enhanced) or by
disconnecting power to the on-board computer.
(D) Permanent fault codes may not be erased when the control module
containing the permanent fault codes is reprogrammed unless the
readiness status (refer to section (g)(4.1)) for all monitored components
and systems is set to “not complete” in conjunction with the
reprogramming event.

(2.5) Erasing a permanent fault code.
(2.5.1) If the OBD II system is commanding the MIL on, the OBD II system shall
erase a permanent fault code only if the OBD II system itself determines
that the malfunction that caused the permanent fault code to be stored is
no longer present and is not commanding the MIL on, pursuant to the
11
requirements of section (d)(2.3) (which for purposes of this section shall
apply to all monitors).

The top sectrion is section 4.4.6. I didn't spend the tiem to read through all of this, so I may not be reading it correctly. By the way, thanks for the link Carl, good reading!
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