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Rick Hill

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Re: firstlook
Reply #75 - Jul 24^th, 2007 at 2:44pm

Michael here are the running compression waves for the cylinders you asked about.There are no revelations here for me as I already knew there wasn't anything wrong with this a new set of heads wouldn't cure. With a leak tester on #4 the intake is always open but I can hear that the cam is moving the valve as I roll it through. I think maybe that intake is bent or a seat fell out. Do they do that?
Anyway I'll start with #4 and I'll put up the psdata file so you can manipulate them.

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04_f150_running_compression_4.psdata (42 KB | )

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Rick Hill LSD Guide Picogroup Offline Deceased Posts: 660 Gender:	Re: firstlook Reply #76 - Jul 24^th, 2007 at 2:47pm here is #7. These are all synced to #1 primary.
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Rick Hill LSD Guide Picogroup Offline Deceased Posts: 660 Gender:	Re: firstlook Reply #77 - Jul 24^th, 2007 at 2:48pm here is #2.
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Rick Hill LSD Guide Picogroup Offline Deceased Posts: 660 Gender:	Re: firstlook Reply #78 - Jul 24^th, 2007 at 2:50pm here is #6.
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Rick Hill LSD Guide Picogroup Offline Deceased Posts: 660 Gender:	Re: firstlook Reply #79 - Jul 24^th, 2007 at 2:55pm Running with the fls at the dipstick and the maf ac coupled didn't come out so well. I couldn't seem to get rid of the noise and the same with the fls and the cranking waveforms I think mostly over using such a low voltage range to get much of a wave form. Here is running with the fls at the dip stick and the maf ac coupled.
Back to top	« Last Edit: Jul 24^th, 2007 at 3:11pm by Rick Hill » 04_f150___maf_ac_coupled_fls_at_dipstick_001.psdata (22 KB \| ) Rick Hill IP Logged

Rick Hill LSD Guide Picogroup Offline Deceased Posts: 660 Gender:	Re: firstlook Reply #80 - Jul 24^th, 2007 at 2:57pm The cranking with the fls did not get rid of the wave through the waveform here is fls at the intake cranking along with the maf ac coupled
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Rick Hill LSD Guide Picogroup Offline Deceased Posts: 660 Gender:	Re: firstlook Reply #81 - Jul 24^th, 2007 at 3:00pm Last is cranking with the fls in the exhaust. This did change some from the running exhaust capture but there is a lot of noise on the signal. I tried wrapping the fls in rags and seting it on a stand not connected to the truck but it didn't seem to help much.
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mwebb

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Re: firstlook
Reply #82 - Jul 24^th, 2007 at 8:04pm

i cant really fit #4 into a place i am happy with on #7 .
i would have liked larger samples with a few 720 degree cycles , like 100ms in psdata not just 1 screen with 1 event so i can take what i need to get a match ,
both have been sized to 720 degrees and #4 is overlayed on top of #7 valve opening and closing are marked off for #7 i dont know what factory specification is . vertical on #4 is not scaled to match #7 but they are both 720 degrees as per sync provided

i would like a larger / longer sample of #4 running compression ... please o please

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Rahill_ford_5_4_RC_7_with_4_overlayed_ani.gif (51 KB | )

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mwebb

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Re: firstlook
Reply #83 - Jul 24^th, 2007 at 8:39pm

here is with running compression of cylinder 7 with running compression from cylinder 2 with running compression from cylinder 4
the begin and end in degrees for #4 are not the same as the other 2 , all three waveforms cover 720 degrees 2 is bank 1, 7 bank 2 there does seem to be a very slight cam timing difference between bank 1 and bank 2 ? ???

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Rahill_ford_5_4_RC_7_and_2_with_4_overlayed_ani.gif (61 KB | )

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Rick Hill

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Re: firstlook
Reply #84 - Jul 25^th, 2007 at 9:59am

Michael when you opened the #4 running compression test did you click on 100%. The truck is now being torn down so I can't get another capture. There is as much time on #4 as the others. I had at first thought there was a possibility of one cam being 360* out of time but it looks as if that is not the case so I guess the pictures in alldata in the timing chain replacement section are misleading as to where the teeth for the cmp sensors fall. In there it looks as if the 3 teeth and the 2 teeth should be 360* from each other but that can't be the case looking at the running compression wave forms. The valve timing events also look to fall about where they should as well so I'm going to say the cams must at least be very close to correctly timed. Given that this cnk sensor cam sensor relationship must be about correct and this looks different than any fords I've looked at in the past. Normally I would see the first of the three teeth and the first of the two teeth cross zero voltage at 20*-25* atc and in this case it's the second of three teeth crossing zero at 10*atc and that tooth is missing in the two tooth pattern. I'm going to say the cmp to ckp sensor relation ship is possibly a little early but otherwise correct and does fall inside the internal pip window of 10*btc and 35* atc. Until I see different I have to say the cmp,ckp relationship is correct. Below is what it looks like with the actuators at 0 duty cycle or fully advanced as the duty cycle on the actuators increases the cams will retard from this point. The vct has a range af about 60*

You are pretty good with that anno waveform program and do a nice job of putting those waveforms into perspective. Thanks for taking a look at these it helps confirm what I'm thinking about this thing.

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« Last Edit: Jul 25^th, 2007 at 4:50pm by Rick Hill »

04_f_150_ckpcmpign_prim.psdata (212 KB | )

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mwebb

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Re: firstlook
Reply #85 - Jul 30^th, 2007 at 5:58pm

this thread is getting to be like a run on sentence , but the subject is still the same ? i guess , so ....

new "Tip" for the FLSe sensor for when you use it in the exhaust - From ATS , does it work , yes , does it do what they say it will do ? i dunno , i dont know what they say it does .

this is what it does do ,
i have captured FLSe synced to #1 primary on a 6 cylinder BMW M52 engine , these are hash makers , there is almost always a lot of mess in the exhaust pulse train on these .
i made a different "tip" to use on everything , it increases amplitude and it works for that , it does not really do anything for the hash . This "Tip" from ATS does clean up the hash but , you loose amplitude .
both captured with the same FLS sensor from the same car at hot idle in reverse with brake on , no DTC .
below i have overlayed the FLSe ATS waveform just below the waveform captured with my "tip"
it is easier to identify a weak exhaust pulse which usually equals a low flowing injector , there are no "long line" misfires    i have overlayed cursors to mark off where the ATS waveform shows the peak of the weak pulse and put the cursors at the same place , 84% on the waveform with my "tip "
   it is much easier to see it with the ATS "Tip" .

using AES ANNOwave software i have matched 720 degrees to 720 degrees and i matched the amplitude exactly so that amplitude would not be a part of this comparison .

the car idles smoothly hot in gear, no perceived misfire or anything .

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« Last Edit: Jul 30^th, 2007 at 6:30pm by mwebb »

ATS_FLS_tip_compared_10w_6v_ani.gif (143 KB | )

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mwebb

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Re: firstlook
Reply #86 - Jul 30^th, 2007 at 6:32pm

for those who dont like the ani gif , here is just gif

new "Tip" for the FLSe sensor for when you use it in the exhaust - From ATS , does it work , yes , does it do what they say it will do ? i dunno , i dont know what they say it does .

this is what it does do ,
i have captured FLSe synced to #1 primary on a 6 cylinder BMW M52 engine , these are hash makers , there is almost always a lot of mess in the exhaust pulse train on these .
i made a different "tip" to use on everything , it increases amplitude and it works for that , it does not really do anything for the hash . This "Tip" from ATS does clean up the hash but , you loose amplitude .
both captured with the same FLS sensor from the same car at hot idle in reverse with brake on , no DTC .
below i have overlayed the FLSe ATS waveform just below the waveform captured with my "tip"
it is easier to identify a weak exhaust pulse which usually equals a low flowing injector , there are no "long line" misfires    i have overlayed cursors to mark off where the ATS waveform shows the peak of the weak pulse and put the cursors at the same place , 84% on the waveform with my "tip "
   it is much easier to see it with the ATS "Tip" .

using AES ANNOwave software i have matched 720 degrees to 720 degrees and i matched the amplitude exactly so that amplitude would not be a part of this comparison .

the car idles smoothly hot in gear, no perceived misfire or anything .

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ATS_FLS_tip_compared_10w_6v.gif (118 KB | )

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Wilf Super Nerd Picogroup Offline Never too old to learn Posts: 815 Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Manitoba Canada Gender:	Re: firstlook Reply #87 - Jul 31^st, 2007 at 4:00am Mike Could the one slightly shorter exh pulse not be caused by something other than an injector? Do you have an acompaning injector capture to show us that there is a poorly flowing inj in this vehicle? Wilf
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mwebb

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Re: firstlook
Reply #88 - Jul 31^st, 2007 at 10:09am

Wilf wrote on Jul 31^st, 2007 at 4:00am:

Mike

Could the one slightly shorter exh pulse not be caused by something other than an injector?
Do you have an accompanied injector capture to show us that there is a poorly flowing inj in this vehicle?

Wilf

as one example ;
in the GTD forum look in the thread about the 4.7 jeep , you will see a image of low er FLS fpr pulses in the fuel rail which line up with weak puffs in the exhaust pulse train .
in my limited experience , when ever i follow up ,a weak exhaust pulse WITHOUT a long line misfire = low flowing injector .
but since you have been doing this longer than me ..... feel free to show me what i am doing incorrectly .

but on this BMW i have not proved what the waveform shows - i was comparing the waveforms from the 2 tips more than i was looking to fix a car .

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Rick Hill

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Re: firstlook
Reply #89 - Jul 31^st, 2007 at 11:06am

Michael what is the difference between the two tips? Smaller opening, larger opening, screen or restriction in the coupling?
I looked at the wave forms you annotated for the 4.7 and I would agree with your analysis of the waveforms but I kind of wondered about whether the fuel wave pulse problem were really for #1 and #6 injectors. That would put injection somewhere around 150 degrees before the intake valve opened which seemed kind of early. I've never looked at the injectors on one of these so I really don't know but like that ford I was looking at up above the injectors were triggering at about 70 degrees before tdc overlap or intake valve opening. Made me wonder if what we were seeing in the exhaust waveform on that 4.7 was really caused by an injector although it would make sense that it was. I would like to have seen an injector capture on #1 and #6 to go along with the fls exhaust capture.

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« Last Edit: Jul 31^st, 2007 at 2:04pm by Rick Hill »

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