I have done 2 captures with the WPS in the rear cylinder on a XR1000 Harley. One is cranking and the other is running @1,400 rpm. Should I assume the reason I am seeing the difference in respect to cam timing is because of the uneven firing on this V - Twin motor? Comments?

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James I would suggest getting the CKP signal to go with your cylinder pressure trace.

James, don't know much about Harley but unless they employ some form of variable cam timing which I doubt, could be wrong. Again with the bikes don't have a lot of data in front of us.......need too hunt a little. Like the KAW 450 you worked on the strategy is not always posted as much as for cars.

See your EVO markers, but would like to align it with the tool I have which I originally got from Scott Schotton, ETO, but was surrouned by a propritery law suit, so don't think it is still available.


Also could you drop the file in here or over in the drop site, but last time I had a hard time accesing it. If the information is not too large you can file it here.

By the way.........just finished a 2700 mile ride in Or, Id, Mont, Wyoming mostly in the dirt, was a great ride, 35 riders, some came and went, a few broken bikes, but no broken riders, always a plus, will send you some pictures.

Glad too see your still playing wiht the Pico, good for you.

James, here is a screen print on where I see EVO should open IMO. Don't know if this is a chain, gear or belt, have no idea?, but what are the symptems, or just playing around with it?

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you may also want to post a good cylinder as a comparison

Spence wrote on Jul 24^th, 2017 at 4:25pm:

James I would suggest getting the CKP signal to go with your cylinder pressure trace.

+1

Ray

I do not have a known good. There is no CKP sensor, just a pickup for the ignition. Its hard to get any capture cause 'the thing runs so poorly. Doesn't look right to my amateur eye and I have decided I am going to pull it apart to check camshaft timing etc.

James time permitting I will try and hook up my Harley and get a capture or two or three...   8-)

Spence, that would be awesome if you could.

James H wrote on Aug 11^th, 2017 at 8:43am:

Spence, that would be awesome if you could.

Would you happen to have a wiring dia. for a 2014 FXSB?

Spence, uploaded a Service Manual for you in the Drop Site under my name James Hunt - Harley folder

James H wrote on Aug 11^th, 2017 at 12:04pm:

Spence, uploaded a Service Manual for you in the Drop Site under my name James Hunt - Harley folder

I'm on it. Have you seen where they hide the PCM on these? I put a ThunderMAX PCM in it. I am gonna have to find the connector location for the CKP before going to the PCM.

Spence, your not going to like my answer and i am not positive but I think you have to remove the rear wheel and splash guard.  You may want to change your mind and not to worry, sounds like too much grief. I checked the valve clearance and did find the front cylinder Intake was way loose .005" which makes sense with the compression waveform as the the intake timing was retarded and compression was higher than the rear cylinder waveform. The rear cyl valve clearance were both loose by .002". The engine runs better but still way leaner on the front. I am going to check intake vacuum next on both now that I have adjusted the valve clearance. I had only 10 in hg of vacuum before, that seems low to me but they were both about the same so im not sure why the front is so much leaner.

Hi James, can post a cranking waveform with the WPS in the tailpipe and is there center port in the intake?

Ray

James H wrote on Aug 12^th, 2017 at 7:11am:

Spence, your not going to like my answer and i am not positive but I think you have to remove the rear wheel and splash guard.  You may want to change your mind and not to worry, sounds like too much grief.

No worries James. As I told you I already changed out the stock PCM for a ThunderMax which I can re write the calibration for the engine management system. You are correct you have to remove the rear wheel to gain access on this ride to get to the PCM.

I looked and the CKP sensor connect is accessible. You will get the captures at least to review and talk about...   8-)


James H wrote on Aug 12^th, 2017 at 7:11am:

I checked the valve clearance and did find the front cylinder Intake was way loose .005" which makes sense with the compression waveform as the the intake timing was retarded and compression was higher than the rear cylinder waveform. The rear cyl valve clearance were both loose by .002". The engine runs better but still way leaner on the front. I am going to check intake vacuum next on both now that I have adjusted the valve clearance. I had only 10 in hg of vacuum before, that seems low to me but they were both about the same so im not sure why the front is so much leaner.

Vacuum leaks are not much of an issue as these PCM employ "Alpha N" logic to fueling if yours is fuel injected. If not then have at it.

As far as vacuum at idle. I don't think these engines have that much with the way they are laid out.  ::)

Glad to hear you are doing better with your problem child! Get the lean condition figured out and lets go for a ride.   8-)

As promised cranking compression.   8-)

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And running compression...

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I should mention I did NOT have a WPS hose for this spark plug size. I used a compression hose and adapter shown in the pictures below which when we have compared to a WPS setup the Snap on configuration had a 10% lower reading.

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rayray wrote on Aug 12^th, 2017 at 7:57am:

Hi James, can post a cranking waveform with the WPS in the tailpipe and is there center port in the intake? Ray

James H wrote on Aug 12^th, 2017 at 7:11am:

Spence, your not going to like my answer and i am not positive but I think you have to remove the rear wheel and splash guard.  You may want to change your mind and not to worry, sounds like too much grief. I checked the valve clearance and did find the front cylinder Intake was way loose .005" which makes sense with the compression waveform as the the intake timing was retarded and compression was higher than the rear cylinder waveform. The rear cyl valve clearance were both loose by .002". The engine runs better but still way leaner on the front. I am going to check intake vacuum next on both now that I have adjusted the valve clearance. I had only 10 in hg of vacuum before, that seems low to me but they were both about the same so im not sure why the front is so much leaner.

Starting too laugh here, like one of the BMW/s  pull the trans to grease the Driveline, just a hoot, but sounds like you guys are on it.  James, I told you Spence likes too be punished.

StitchB

rayray wrote on Aug 12^th, 2017 at 7:57am:

Hi James, can post a cranking waveform with the WPS in the tailpipe and is there center port in the intake? Ray

James H wrote on Aug 12^th, 2017 at 7:11am:

Spence, your not going to like my answer and i am not positive but I think you have to remove the rear wheel and splash guard.  You may want to change your mind and not to worry, sounds like too much grief. I checked the valve clearance and did find the front cylinder Intake was way loose .005" which makes sense with the compression waveform as the the intake timing was retarded and compression was higher than the rear cylinder waveform. The rear cyl valve clearance were both loose by .002". The engine runs better but still way leaner on the front. I am going to check intake vacuum next on both now that I have adjusted the valve clearance. I had only 10 in hg of vacuum before, that seems low to me but they were both about the same so im not sure why the front is so much leaner.

Starting too laugh here, like one of the BMW/s  pull the trans to grease the Driveline, just a hoot, but sounds like you guys are on it.  James, I told you Spence likes too be punished.

StitchB

Spence some opinions as in the learning mode, as always. 

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StitchB wrote on Aug 13^th, 2017 at 7:08am:

rayray wrote on Aug 12th, 2017 at 7:57am: Hi James, can post a cranking waveform with the WPS in the tailpipe and is there center port in the intake? Ray James H wrote on Aug 12th, 2017 at 7:11am: Spence, your not going to like my answer and i am not positive but I think you have to remove the rear wheel and splash guard.  You may want to change your mind and not to worry, sounds like too much grief. I checked the valve clearance and did find the front cylinder Intake was way loose .005" which makes sense with the compression waveform as the the intake timing was retarded and compression was higher than the rear cylinder waveform. The rear cyl valve clearance were both loose by .002". The engine runs better but still way leaner on the front. I am going to check intake vacuum next on both now that I have adjusted the valve clearance. I had only 10 in hg of vacuum before, that seems low to me but they were both about the same so im not sure why the front is so much leaner. Starting too laugh here, like one of the BMW/s  pull the trans to grease the Driveline, just a hoot, but sounds like you guys are on it.  James, I told you Spence likes too be punished. StitchB

Glad you got a chuckle out of it Larry! It really wasn't as bad as it could of been for two reasons.

1. I found the connector for the CKP just behind a bracket on the front of the frame.

2. Mick gave me a paw (translate hand) with it.  8-)

StitchB wrote on Aug 13^th, 2017 at 7:31am:

Spence some opinions as in the learning mode, as always.

Larry I applauded your thirst for knowledge and the way you keep pride in check when asking!

Couple of my thoughts are... The hose setup I HAD to use to get this I would be cautious on. I do NOT like the added length, the adapter I had to employ and the hose didn't feel as firm as the ones that came with the WPS.

Next this engine is horrible with the aspect of crankshaft speed variation! This is one (keyword one) of reasons I (and maybe Ray) wanted to have a CKP trace to go along with the compression wave capture. If you mark out crank rotation degrees those towers might not look as leaning. I still feel there is a bit of a lean but another hose purchase may be happening in the near future.  8-)

Spence

Hi Larry and James

The waves that Spence put up with inferior compression hoses will still show you true TDC on cranking and cranking to start.

The problem starts when the speed and heat builds.

James if you do yours with the crank sensor and the WPS hoses you would get a great capture.

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Mick wrote on Aug 13^th, 2017 at 2:33pm:

Hi Larry and James The waves that Spence put up with inferior compression hoses will still show you true TDC on cranking and cranking to start. The problem starts when the speed and heat builds. James if you do yours with the crank sensor and the WPS hoses you would get a great capture.

That tower is floating at times a good 11.25 degrees.

Also depending on the year and the size of the engine Harley employs a compression release during cranking.

Just wanted you to realize it.  8-)

Mick wrote on Aug 13^th, 2017 at 2:33pm:

Hi Larry and James The waves that Spence put up with inferior compression hoses will still show you true TDC on cranking and cranking to start.

As much as I think Snap On products are junk I think the hoses could work but I think it is more the coupler used to adapt it.


Mick wrote on Aug 13^th, 2017 at 2:33pm:

The problem starts when the speed and heat builds.

I don't see this as being that much of an issue with the tests I posted


Mick wrote on Aug 13^th, 2017 at 2:33pm:

James if you do yours with the crank sensor and the WPS hoses you would get a great capture.

Mick see reply#6

wrote on Aug 13^th, 2017 at 3:38pm:

Also depending on the year and the size of the engine Harley employs a compression release during cranking.

Which would be accurately measured by the WPS and crankshaft sensor whilst cranking.


Spence wrote on Aug 13^th, 2017 at 3:38pm:

Just wanted you to realize it.

OK don't worry I go it :D

Mick wrote on Aug 13^th, 2017 at 5:01pm:

Spence wrote on Aug 13th, 2017 at 3:38pm: Mick wrote on Aug 13th, 2017 at 2:33pm: Hi Larry and James The waves that Spence put up with inferior compression hoses will still show you true TDC on cranking and cranking to start. The problem starts when the speed and heat builds. James if you do yours with the crank sensor and the WPS hoses you would get a great capture. That tower is floating at times a good 11.25 degrees. Also depending on the year and the size of the engine Harley employs a compression release during cranking. Just wanted you to realize it.  8-) Looks stable at cranking to me. Spence wrote on Aug 13th, 2017 at 3:38pm: Also depending on the year and the size of the engine Harley employs a compression release during cranking. Which would be accurately measured by the WPS and crankshaft sensor whilst cranking.

Absolutely! Glad to see we agree.   8-)

Spence wrote on Aug 13^th, 2017 at 5:03pm:

Absolutely! Glad to see we agree.

X1  :)

Okay, concurr with all, hose playing a part ect, just wanted too make sure that I might know something but it might just be wrong, a great quote I always use.

Did get to thinking too myself the other day after asking a question on the tower, then had the thought that my KLR does also have a compression release (of sorts) which does not actually go away until after certain RPM then cam comes back on line totally. Don't know if this is also playing into the scenario here.

All this said, the valve timing on Spences did appear to me too be where I would think, and on James was seriously skewed IMO.

Also nice too see the automotive players working with him. I told him this would pay him huge dividends. The bike world is getting sophisticated but the Dealers, and manufacuters do not or will not share the info, so it is a trial by error for most of these guys, and with no automotive back ground they are serioiusly handicapped.

Seen a post on a KTM (late model single cyl dirt bike) and the guy had it in and out of the shop for months, factory mechs ect, and still runnin issues. I wrote, get that bike out of there!!!!, find a serous ASME auto diagnostic tech, and pay him too look @ it, your chances of success will be better.

First off a huge thanks for Spence for getting these captures. I agree with you guys on the leaning towers, I think its mostly due to both the compression release and crank speed variation as it is a 45 degree twin with common crankpin so front cylinder fires, 315 degrees later rear cylinder fires, 405 degrees later front cylinder fires.
Interestingly, this is one of the reasons Harley dominated flat track for such a long time as this pop..pop firing maximized traction by giving the tire "time" to recover. The Japanese played with  this in road racing with their "Bg Bang" motor as well.
On my problem motor I am not able to capture a CKP trace as its an older carburated motor. I run into this a lot as many motorcycles are still carburated. I have build a remote starter with a 60 tooth gear and VRS mounted on it to use on some of these staggered firing motors. I use it on the end of the crank to turn the motor over. Unfortunately can’t on this motor.
I have a fair bit less intake vacuum than yours, could this partly be due to the fact that you have a common intake manifold where mine is individual runners with a carb and filter on each end? Also, my running compression seems much too high.  I am going to redo the compression waveforms now that I have adjusted the valve clearance and I’ll post them to compare.

James H wrote on Aug 14^th, 2017 at 7:16pm:

First off a huge thanks for Spence for getting these captures.

You're welcome. It was a pleasure to be able to help.


James H wrote on Aug 14^th, 2017 at 7:16pm:

I agree with you guys on the leaning towers,

Are they really leaning as much as the look of the capture would lead your mind to believe?

Spence   8-)

James, keep in mind if the timing is off by a significant amount this could also raise the compression as allowing the intake more time too inhale, just a thought there, much like cranking comp is higher than running..........has more time to inhale.

Run into this in GDI motors ( a little different example, but similar) if the pump is initiatated too early (out of time advanced) the pressures can go up in the thousands as the build time is far longer.............. very interesting.

The nice thing as we talked about here is learning the different subtle nuances of how each system works and then you have a base line for repairing said system.  The beauty of the Pico is you have knowledge of as you stated the differnt firing times of both cyclinders on the Harley, now you can watch it in real time...............and is it right or is it wrong????, that will be developed over time.