This motorcycle is a no-start after 3-4 months of non-running. Maybe the gasoline has deteriorated. At first as a no-start I checked for coil control. There was none but there was power to the coil. So I looked into getting at the ignition module at it's terminals. There was no out put and as I was moving it around in my hands, water began to pour out and in disconnecting it from it's harness the module came apart.
We decided to get another ignition module. They are obsolete and if found new upwards of 450.00 dollars; so we bought used on ebay. Got the ebay module installed and now I had coil control but still no start so here are some waveforms.
At first I came up with the primary and secondary I am posting here. Then, yesterday, for hours I could not come up with a decent secondary capture; I was assuming either now I had lost spark or my probe is wrong...I found out I might have had filter on. In any case, I am posting the one secondary capture I do have because before I quit yesterday I decided to pull one spark plug wire, attach an old plug and ground it and see if I now had spark. I did. I have weak spark, no big hot blue bastards. It is consistent spark, as you see in the capture with primary. So I would not encounter the big spark less it was running I think, is that right?
I tried to get an amperage ramp for the coils. They were drawing extremely little power I thought so can someone explain to me this:
I have a 60 Amp clamp and want to measure using the 20 amp function. So that would mean use the 1mV - 100mA, is that right?
Or should I disregard the PICO setting and just use a mV scale?
   

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I know nothing about Motor Cycles but I though I would chime in on the scope settings ;) Don I hope you don't mind.


fisher wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 11:46am:

At first I came up with the primary and secondary I am posting here

See notes on first image


fisher wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 11:46am:

It is consistent spark, as you see in the capture with primary. So I would not encounter the big spark less it was running I think, is that right?

As long as there are no resistance issues you should hear a nice snap and see the scope measure a good KV


fisher wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 11:46am:

I tried to get an amperage ramp for the coils.

Try the second image for the amp settings.

I have set the probe for 0 to 10 Amps, you could select select 0 to 5 Amps if need be.

How about hooking up to that G or B terminal also on ChD

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I am going to take a close look at what you posted here Mick, and here is more stuff I got tonight. I took a capture of Battery voltage positive to watch the drop to the coil in power if any during cranking. With it set to read primary voltage negative it is a goof because of the 400 V setting. You can zoom in and see about a 3 volt drop.
The hashy blue is the amp clamp set at 1mV = 100mA
on  the clamp with the scope set at 20 amp PICO scale           .
    I am going to look at filtering the amp clamp.

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After looking at the reading with the filter going on and measuring I must have the scale wrong. I had it set to just read 100 millivolts. There was so much hash it went off the screen so I set it to the assumed PICO setting. I want to take my battery charger there and try this again. I had the secondary set on a 1 to 5V scale just intending to interpret the 10,000 to 1 attenuation. We can do this again tomorrow.

fisher wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 7:51pm:

I took a capture of Battery voltage positive to watch the drop to the coil in power if any during cranking

That Voltage drop is created from the compression.


fisher wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 7:51pm:

The hashy blue is the amp clamp set at 1mV = 100mA on  the clamp with the scope set at 20 amp PICO scale           .

Your amp clamp was upside down I inverted it for you now it lines up with the spark spike and the drop in voltage of the battery as the compression peaks


fisher wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 8:00pm:

I had the secondary set on a 1 to 5V scale just intending to interpret the 10,000 to 1 attenuation

Dont do this just set the secondary probe like you did the first time.

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I am going to run back up there this weekend. I cant believe that the amp draw is around .2 amps. I did not know we can invert a signal after saving it. I will get a capture of the crank signal.

fisher wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2016 at 6:37am:

I cant believe that the amp draw is around .2 amps

What Amp clamp are you using? Is it one of these?http://www.autonerdz.com/ampprobes.html

This is a PDI (brand) CA60 (model#). It looks identical to the 60A/20A that Tom sells here. I have thought they were the same thing but it is possible the basic model is made to spec for whom orders it.

So I went out to the bike, tested stuff.
I tested my amp clamp on my Ford Aerostar fuel pump; the vehicle runs, the pump works... the clamp shew it consuming .2 or .15 amps or such so we are done with it.
I tested the other coil yesterday, it is like the other. I did primary, secondary and each side of the VRS.
Also, I took an android (smartphone) video of the spark happening. Tell me how how to post an android video?
On this bike as it now sits, the spark will not travel more than a 1/4" or so from the wire while I hold a test light out from it, during cranking.
I am unable to get the secondary like I did before. I pulled the plugwire and grounded it with a spare plug and find I do have spark regardless.
I am wondering if it is a good spark. like big enough and wonder if timing is right. One thing to look at is the primary shut-off, does it take too long?
  How about fuel, is it ruined from aging. Three or four months this bike has sat. The carburetors could have corroded in that amount of time.

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Damn, my sample rate was too low. The primary did not show up. I am done for the weekend. Gotta do this again. Sorry,you guys.

fisher wrote on Jul 24^th, 2016 at 6:22am:

Damn, my sample rate was too low

No its not Don its 500ns between samples the only thing is the amount of time on the screen.
I came up with a start up settings a long time ago and every one uses it now, its 500ms/div with 20MS #samples  for your 4423 and 6 MS for the 4425.

Type these into there boxes and go to FILE then START UP SETTINGS and then click SAVE USER DEFAULT SETTINGS.
Now properties should give a sample interval of 1us which is good for ignition systems.

fisher wrote on Jul 24^th, 2016 at 6:22am:

The primary did not show up

Your primary is there  ;) the secondary probe you selected was for Positive and you needed Negative/Inverted.

You cant invert that channel now because you only captured 3KV of the secondary kick.

fisher wrote on Jul 24^th, 2016 at 6:22am:

Sorry,you guys

Don't worry about it we all made these errors when we started.

Practice every day on known good engines saving files with those start up settings and you will get the hang of it soon enough.

Now go and have yourself a nice Cider 8-)
Or a nice Wheat beer from any Micro Brewery like what I am supping right now ;)

fisher wrote on Jul 24^th, 2016 at 6:14am:

I did primary, secondary and each side of the VRS.

The diagram shows an odd shape of the reluctor so I will except the wave for 1 and 4


fisher wrote on Jul 24^th, 2016 at 6:14am:

Tell me how how to post an android video?

Can you copy and paste it to the drop site?



fisher wrote on Jul 24^th, 2016 at 6:14am:

One thing to look at is the primary shut-off, does it take too long?

Maybe due to the battery not turning the engine over fast enough :-/


fisher wrote on Jul 24^th, 2016 at 6:14am:

How about fuel,

Get some fresh gas in it.


fisher wrote on Jul 24^th, 2016 at 6:14am:

The carburetors could have corroded in that amount of time.

Is it safe to spray a little into the throttle :D ;D

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It's just as well to leave the battery on the charger while we do this. So one of our fellow nerdz here (he does not want to be mentioned by name) is also a full time technician, as you are Mick. He offered to help and when I get these sort of issues my lack of experience  requires I call someone whom has been perplexed more than just a few times.
       I am going to put some fuel in Mick that is new, not so old.  cylinders 1 and 4 are companions as seen in the schematic and this is an inline four transvers mounted as is common. I agree that you circled 1 and 4; looking at the schematic we see the bigger tooth with the hole in it that makes for an odd impulse and that is the one we see there.
  I did have this capture of the reluctor with each side of it referenced to ground, a two channel capture, posted here.

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So I got together with Doug Saros today at my victim's - I mean customer's - house in the afternoon. We find that the amp probe I was using does not operate according to what it's setting says.
We found using his PICO 30 amp clamp came up with something more reasonable to me. The spark LOOKS like a 3 amp spark. We found if I wanted to see the waveform at 20 amp scale that we ought set the scale to 1mV = 100mA.It changed our pattern in a pleasing way. Then we  hooked up the PICO 30A to both coils at once. I am having trouble loading a gif file so no snapshots, You gotta open the PSD file.

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I would like to compare the two captures to a known good set of equivalent or identical motorcycle coils.

So, why was there a lean condition in my previous captures? I had the fuel tank removed from the bike for access. So I will post more here later. Thanks for help, Mick and Doug. I have rigged a canister for to hold gasoline and bought clean new gas. 

fisher wrote on Jul 25^th, 2016 at 9:25pm:

I would like to compare the two captures to a known good set of equivalent or identical motorcycle coils.

Well you didn't set the scope up  [smiley=bash.gif] like I recommended and now you can see the 2us sample interval points when you zoom in on the turn off. It turned off fast enough but IF we needed to know if it turned off faster we would not be able to confirm it. :D
 

fisher wrote on Jul 26^th, 2016 at 7:11am:

So, why was there a lean condition in my previous captures? I had the fuel tank removed from the bike for access.

That would do it  [smiley=happy.gif]

Look at these...when the plugs fire, the module fails. See the missing ignition events?
It would start if the module did not stop controlling the coil. The other capture is with the fuel removed. No gasoline burning, no load on coil...

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fisher wrote on Jul 26^th, 2016 at 2:15pm:

Look at these.

I would like the files. ;)

Your drop box folder would be a good place for them.

I just loaded them onto the drop site in PSD files under fisher.

When I saw that the signals all dropped out between the firing events (except for the VRS), I  decided to take a look at all the wiring going to the module as I cranked. I got so far as the to see the power from the battery and what is ground. I am noticing the ground has a high voltage drop. The ground is across the ignition switch, from battery to module. I measured at the module. I am wondering if that high drop is the issue.

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That is a high voltage drop, KOEO. I am going to jumper that direct to ground KOEO and see if that makes any difference.

I did get as far as trying to start the motor with that circuit grounded by a jumper wire independent of the ignition switch and it did not start. Unfortuneately, I did not get a waveform of it.
I measured ohms resistance across the terminals of the switch and measured 120 ohms across the switch when circuit is closed. That doesn't seem right.
I thought that if the module shut down it might be because the poor ground prevents enough current flow to keep some capacitive circuit saturated. I need the waveform. It sounded the same; a sputter or two but no light-off.
There two grounds to the moduel. You will see that in the posted wiring diagram if you zoom in. Windows photo viewer allows that.
One of the grounds is straight ground to module and the other is provided at engine run position on the ignition switch. I am assuming the one provided by the switch is for controls.
Your thoughts are welcome.  I want to decide or not the replacement module -a used one - is no good.

I know you guys are dying to know what is going to happen here.
I had left a neutral feedback on Ebay for the folk whom sold me the ignition module. I stated it did not work.
They wrote back and have offered to send another. I will probably take the offer. My friend , the owner and I discussed that we made a mistake, especially me that we got this far in refurbishing the bike without finding out about parts availability. The module is expensive but worse,it is obsolete, no longer sold by Suzuki. I have been finding it to be unavailable except used. So from a business sense this bike is unrepairable as long as we aren't going to customize it with our own ignition we and dont have an alternative.
My friend is supportive and not angry with me, for that I am thankful.
    I mentioned that the ignition switch, one of whose circuits is a ground supplied to module at key on has 120 ohms resistance across the contacts as measured between switch at harness connector and this ground at the module.
However, I bypassed the switch with a wire direct to ground from the module and it did not change. I did not have the PICO hooked up though, which I will today because today I am going to measure one last time, this time for the grounds and power supplied to the module while we crank it while it has a source of fuel.
As said, it seems that when the ignitor ignites fuel, there is kickback voltage shutting down the module and it stops firing - I mean the module shuts down as it cant handle the load of driving the . It seems not plausible that the grounds or power is shutting down due to that load but I will check it anyway before I send the module back to make sure that I prove and save the proof (waveform capture) that the module SHOULD be operating.

Here is s filtered snapshot during crank and will put psd file in dropsite.

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fisher wrote on Jul 28^th, 2016 at 10:10am:

.  I want to decide or not the replacement module -a used one - is no good.

Fisher, running into this a lot as of late. Worked on a Kawasaki jet ski not that old, 2002.  Cannot buy a new ECM in this case a water cooled and failes do to sea weed in the tube. If one is to be had from Kawasaki dealer is a mere 1,250.00 and the sweet part is they no longer carry it.

On older stuff, buyer beware.

Also on a lot of this stuff right out of the gate I bypass all the saftey switches, clutch, kick stand and nuetral. Differs on some but on my bikes just ground the module on one line and it is now hot.  I do not recommend this and using the unit but sometimes is the only way to get home.

As a side note, Doug really likes Hot Chocolate, just saying.

StitchB