Hi there, here is my very first post,

i need to overcome the steep learning curve of this instrument,
for stater this bike has a KEIHIN fly by wire system. once hot if you let go of the throttle for said a traffic light she stays advance, today a recorded this trace from the magneto pick up sensor(pulse generator). can any one please tells me what do   you infer from this trace.  this trace is at idle, and could this be the reason for this engine stayed in an advance mode.

Thanks in advance for your help.

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Alex,

I made this motorcycle board for you and other motorcycle techs.

Not often is looking at a single input very useful.  I suggest you choose several inputs and outputs based on your knowledge of how that system works.

Also avoid using AC coupling unless you have a really good reason to filter out the DC components of the signal.

AlexE wrote on Oct 1^st, 2012 at 8:12pm:

for stater this bike has a KEIHIN fly by wire system. once hot if you let go of the throttle for said a traffic light she stays advance

alex, do you mean to say that it has a high idle when stopped?  if so, perhaps you have a dirty throttle bore holding the throttle plate open? 

ps.  i'm not a cycle tech, and don't play one on tv either  :).

I am aware that a single signal is not useful but, I am learning how to hook up the different cable, I am is still in that stage where you have to look back and forth for casble codes and ways to adapt the car picture versus the a monocylinder engine :-/ Today I hook up the scope once again IN DC mode to the pulse generator, nothing abnormal  about the signal, is just a magneto passing thru the pulse generator all I hope is to get this signal right before procceding any further, since all the future channels signals will most probable by reference to this signal.

As for the problem is question is as follows;
We have KTM 690 which comes equip with two ECU´s, one for EFI and a second that takes care of the FLY By Wire stepper motor.

The engine act normal until it reaches the operating temperature, from there on if you has to stop in a traffic light or slow down or try to cruise at part throttle the ignition advance get stuck in 57-60 degrees BTDC, resulting in a very high operating temp, engine refuses to accelerate, if you manage to gain speed in this  advance mode and let go off the throttle it will lock the rear wheel for sure, imaging the 66HP mono cylinder acting like a 50cc four stroke scooter. :o

I have learned to get the engine out this situation by letting the engine reach redline(8000) in this full advance mode, let go of the throtlle, go down one gear if necessary and letting the revs settle down some and slam the throttle wide open.

Sorry, no dirty TB,
step motor TPS of  by the book (Fly by wire)
Ignition TPS by the book
valve train lash by the book at 0.07 mm and 0.12mm
$2300 AKRAPOVIK exhaust,
compression OK
Injector OK
Thermostat OK
Need to test the coil with the scope, as soon as I learn how.

I suspect the problem resides in the FLY BY WIRE TPS or its step motor.

Like I said above I am brand new with this instrument :(, I feel the need to go one signal at a time, to make sure I am getting coherent signals for each sensor.

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Nice capture, Alex.  Where was the channel ground for that? 

Now try adding more capture time to get several engine cycles on the screen.

Ground :-? no ground Tom, the pulse generator has two(2) wires, I use the TA000 test lead and pierce both cables  using the The TA007 Insulation Piercing Test Clips, no ground used whatsoever :-X,  If I am not mistaken my file let see I see nine (9) crank revolutions, don´t forget that this is a single cylinder engine ( stator-rotor), with an idle speed of 1600 RPM`s.

Since the ultimate fault is a hyper advance spark my next attempt is to add the spark event, question is should a measure primary or secondary event?


i had learned That I should not forget to use the 20:1 attenuation for either case,  and for the secondary I should be grounded to the vehicle battery,  that makes the  Secondary Ignition Pickup (PP178) the only choice for the secondary that much I know, but which cable for primary???? :-/

tom  thanks for your time, I am struggling to find extra time  to learn, and the same time fix the rest of my clients needs. :)

Alex,

Unless you are certain of exactly what you are doing, always ground the scope to battery negative.  Especially when using more than one channel.  Do not place the channel grounds on sensors.  All channel grounds are common and, if using an attenuator, it only works if the scope is grounded.


AlexE wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2012 at 7:01pm:

should a measure primary or secondary event?

Whatever is easier to get to an provides the best results.  If you look at primary use an attenuator with the standard test lead and don't forget to tell the scope you put it there so it will scale accordingly.

The secondary lead dos not require an attenuator since it's already 10,000 to 1 and you are not making a direct connection. Never connect directly to secondary.

AlexE wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2012 at 8:27pm:

I have learned to get the engine out this situation by letting the engine reach redline(8000) in this full advance mode, let go of the throtlle, go down one gear if necessary and letting the revs settle down some and slam the throttle wide open.

sounds like an issue with the program in the ecu  :-/.  i mean, if the throttle cables are free to move, you've just about covered your bases. 

does this thing have a tps for the throttle body and a position sensor for the throttle cable?  for example, modern 'fly by wire' cars use an accelerator pedel position sensor and a throttle position sensor.  is that the case with this motorcycle?

i suppose scoping the tps sensor(s), as well as the lambda/oxygen sensor might provide some clues.  :-/

Tom Roberts wrote on Oct 4^th, 2012 at 7:25am:

standard test lead

Tom, which one is the  std. test lead, the  PP178  or the PP339  :-[

Tom Roberts wrote on Oct 4^th, 2012 at 7:25am:

The secondary lead dos not require an attenuator since it's already 10,000 to 1 and you are not making a direct connection. Never connect directly to secondary.

Sorry Tom I am lost once again, could  you please elaborate further into this subject.

I promise to send pictures of the bike sensor and TB for you folks.

Alex,


AlexE wrote on Oct 4^th, 2012 at 6:54pm:

Tom, which one is the  std. test lead,

The standard test leads are the colored ones you attach directly to a signal wire.


AlexE wrote on Oct 4^th, 2012 at 6:54pm:

you please elaborate further into this subject.

Not sure what you need to know.  Any direct scope connection to secondary coil voltage will immediately destroy the scope and possibly the PC as well.

The PP178 secondary pickups do not attach to the circuit directly but are designed to pick up the signal capacitively through the insulation.  The result is approx 100mv per 1000 volts or 10,000:1.

crackerclicker wrote on Oct 4^th, 2012 at 5:58pm:

does this thing have a tps for the throttle body and a position sensor for the throttle cable?  for example, modern 'fly by wire' cars use an accelerator pedel position sensor and a throttle position sensor.  is that the case with this motorcycle? i suppose scoping the tps sensor(s), as well as the lambda/oxygen sensor might provide some clues.

thanks for your input, I will send Pictures of TB

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Tom, I better be  safe than sorry.

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Let me be sure I understood the sentence¨The PP178 secondary pickups are designed to pick up the signal capacitively through the insulation¨  the insulation is the spark plug wire, right. :-[
beg your excuses once again for my ignorance.

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AlexE wrote on Oct 4^th, 2012 at 8:21pm:

the insulation is the spark plug wire, right.

Right.  You place it on the spark plug wire as you show in your picture.

Just probe one of the wires on the sensor.  Otherwise you ground out the sensor to the other channel ground (ground loop).  Channel grounds go to bat neg.

If you can backprobe the connector this is preferred to piercing the wire (less potential for damage).

crackerclicker wrote on Oct 4^th, 2012 at 5:58pm:

does this thing have a tps for the throttle body and a position sensor for the throttle cable?

appears so.  the servo feedback could be interesting too.  do you have access to the ktm scantool?

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Yes I do have access to the XC1 official scanner tool.
  The bike was at the central dealer for one year with no success, the scan tool does not detect anything wrong with the system. I been toKTM in  Austria for training on the scan tools and the EFI systems. on the other hand I have another scan tool at my shop  that teaks the KTM maps more in depth than the XC1 does,and neither one gives a hint of what is wrong, this is the big reason I ended up buying a PICOSCOPE, something that I don't regret since more often than not a bike comes along my shop with faults that are not recognize by the scan tools.

Like i said before at my shop I did all the pertinent graduations, etc., loaded  the maps in the right sequence, This bikes requires two map with equal serial numbers, one for the EFI and the other for Electronic power throtlle , I did tried many combinations of maps, the bike is much better now, when working properly ran like hell, but if you slow down the pase, for said 10- 15 seconds, could be a traffic light the ignition advance get stock at a value of some 60 degrees BTDC, on the other hand if you stay riding in race mode nothing happens.

I have a DRZ 400 Suzuki and although not FI they have what they claim to be a TPS when in truth it is not as we would define it in the automotive field.  I merely adjusts timing and has nothing to do with fuel.  I don't know if this is the same concept here with KTM although I know some of them as of late have several mappings for different uses, torque, high speed ect.

Tom I think mentioned adding more cylinders and this is a single I'm pretty sure, which makes some diagnostics more difficult such as Comp wave for analysis other than cranking.

It was mentioned a KTM scan tool and although KTM makes a great product, they I have heard and that even from the dealer are less than user friendly with scan data, just talking here.

If timing stays advanced I would look real hard at the TPS if it works like the DRZ although this is light years ahead of it, might still use the same principle.  There is a Map sensor in the picture so don't know what can be leaned from that.

As a side not this is a nice site, the motorcycle field is becoming more sophistocated and in most cases the techs are light years behing the automotive guys who have been butting their heads for the last 20 years, great site Tom.

I finally caught the engine running rough, to me is the coil, but what is making the coil work like that? could be  the heat irradiating( coil is above the header and behind the radiator) from the engine or is it the ground from the ecu.

left and right TPS´s are working in order. crankshaft sensor does too.

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AlexE wrote on Oct 20^th, 2012 at 10:56pm:

to me is the coil, but what is making the coil work like that?

just a heads up, alex.  you need to capture secondary volts with at least a 1 micro second sample interval.  yours is at 101 microseconds.  you won't be able to reliably capture kv spikes with such a low sample rate.  pump it up until you see 1us in the properties box.

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your right  :-?, I forgot once again to do that :'(, should I do secondary, primary and it´s current???

Regards


Alex E

AlexE wrote on Oct 21^st, 2012 at 6:47pm:

should I do secondary, primary and it´s current???

couldn't hurt.  it's fun capturing more than one signal at a time  ;).  i wish the ckp signal had a missing tooth sync, though.  that would be handy.

It does in a way of a different shape spike, at idle  my scanner  shows the advance at 8 deg BTDC

Alex, is this a CDI ignition?, I have no idea.

I dropped a wave form of my KLR 650 and the CDI signatures look nothing like classic ignition of which I am no expert.

If you look at the burn time it is literally in microseconds and not milliseconds.  I have run this by Tom and other people whom are light years ahead of me and many admit that they know little of CDI.  Volts times amps equals watt, and the KLR is excited by 125volts AC (right off the alternator, no diodes) that's why the coil is only the size of a roll of nickels.  All that said the burn time is significantly different than that of a classic coil, which you have I don't know.


As noted, I'm no Guru, just found it interesting and even my instructors didn't know it, the burn time is so short, because it is so hot, that is the theory.

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